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	<title>Comments on: The sacred and the human</title>
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	<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Carol Berger</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-3697</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Berger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-3697</guid>
		<description>I thought you might be interested in some of my work in the sacred and profane and especially my work on the sacred in Wagner. Recently re-published essay from my collection, "Sounds of the Spirit", entitled "Protecting the Restorative In Spiritual Drama" which is about Wagner and the relationship of sacred music to music of a spiritual nature.

Finally look for my piece on "Inperfect Messengers, Perfect Art" dealing with divine grace in the works of flawed human artists.

If interested, please email me privately at cberger@millenniumwagneropera.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought you might be interested in some of my work in the sacred and profane and especially my work on the sacred in Wagner. Recently re-published essay from my collection, &#8220;Sounds of the Spirit&#8221;, entitled &#8220;Protecting the Restorative In Spiritual Drama&#8221; which is about Wagner and the relationship of sacred music to music of a spiritual nature.</p>
<p>Finally look for my piece on &#8220;Inperfect Messengers, Perfect Art&#8221; dealing with divine grace in the works of flawed human artists.</p>
<p>If interested, please email me privately at <a   rel="nofollow" id="sto_emailShroud0" href="http://www.somethinkodd.com/emailshroud/emailaddress.php?domainName=millenniumwagneropera.org&amp;userName=cberger&amp;ver=2.2.0" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.somethinkodd.com');" >cberger</a></p>
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		<title>By: alefbet</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-2510</link>
		<dc:creator>alefbet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 01:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-2510</guid>
		<description>Response to Hitchen's basic question. 

Yes, there are monarchs who have acted within and in keeping with the moral guidelines of their religious systems. 

Whether or not their morality overlaps or subsumes Hichens' morality, is the real question. 

In as much as his morality is derivative of Judeo-Christian morality, there is a significant overlap. In as much as it is a failure to live up this morality, entirely subsumed. 

***

Not all religions are equal. Islam is by far the worst. It allows taqqriqua, which is to say, sanctioned falsehood, and at a philosophical level, constitutes the most primitive theology available to man. I.e. what we do is the will of Allah. To the point that Ghazali seems to deny the physical effect of the guillotine, to the point that we must be slaves to Allahs will. 

The entirely analy retentive nature of this religion is exemplified by its adherents nearly universal inability to even so much as use as synonym the word God, in place of Allah. 

***

Second to Islam comes Hinduism, and Judaism. As backward as they are old. 

***
By all means, Christianity is the most sophisticated, most hypocritical, most demanding, least realistic, and most soiled of them all. Its followers are preoccupied not with loving, but with talking about forms of love they do not care in the slightest to understand. If they were worth a trifling of their avowed values, they would be doctors, medics, and philosophers... not a bunch of pedantic, chatterbox intellectual dimwits. The Church is the greatest barrier to Christ, and to any normative divinity. It stands in the way of truth as much as Bush stands in the way of democracy. 

***
That said, what is worse than an uninformed atheist? One which reduces everything to formulations of game theory, Monte Casino outcomes, and reductionist rationalism? His only defence of his superficiliaty are the shells of empty concepts, democracy, freedom... for which he has neither time, nor any true interest, because he is too busy looking out for his gonads, his stomach, and his wallet. 

***

Basic message, don't get carried away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Response to Hitchen&#8217;s basic question. </p>
<p>Yes, there are monarchs who have acted within and in keeping with the moral guidelines of their religious systems. </p>
<p>Whether or not their morality overlaps or subsumes Hichens&#8217; morality, is the real question. </p>
<p>In as much as his morality is derivative of Judeo-Christian morality, there is a significant overlap. In as much as it is a failure to live up this morality, entirely subsumed. </p>
<p>***</p>
<p>Not all religions are equal. Islam is by far the worst. It allows taqqriqua, which is to say, sanctioned falsehood, and at a philosophical level, constitutes the most primitive theology available to man. I.e. what we do is the will of Allah. To the point that Ghazali seems to deny the physical effect of the guillotine, to the point that we must be slaves to Allahs will. </p>
<p>The entirely analy retentive nature of this religion is exemplified by its adherents nearly universal inability to even so much as use as synonym the word God, in place of Allah. </p>
<p>***</p>
<p>Second to Islam comes Hinduism, and Judaism. As backward as they are old. </p>
<p>***<br />
By all means, Christianity is the most sophisticated, most hypocritical, most demanding, least realistic, and most soiled of them all. Its followers are preoccupied not with loving, but with talking about forms of love they do not care in the slightest to understand. If they were worth a trifling of their avowed values, they would be doctors, medics, and philosophers&#8230; not a bunch of pedantic, chatterbox intellectual dimwits. The Church is the greatest barrier to Christ, and to any normative divinity. It stands in the way of truth as much as Bush stands in the way of democracy. </p>
<p>***<br />
That said, what is worse than an uninformed atheist? One which reduces everything to formulations of game theory, Monte Casino outcomes, and reductionist rationalism? His only defence of his superficiliaty are the shells of empty concepts, democracy, freedom&#8230; for which he has neither time, nor any true interest, because he is too busy looking out for his gonads, his stomach, and his wallet. </p>
<p>***</p>
<p>Basic message, don&#8217;t get carried away.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Wright</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-2043</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-2043</guid>
		<description>I have admired Scruton since I read a work on basic philosophy by him quite a few years ago. However, I must say that this piece, while instructive and insightful as one would expect, is far from effective as a defence of religion. Apologists for religion who have to adopt an anthropological standpoint are defeated before they begin. Myth and ritual, in order to be effective, must be viscerally accepted as true by participants. As Scruton says they must "know not what they do". The best an approach such as this can achieve is to persuade those of us attached to objective truth to leave the poor dupes to their illusions, which is a stance I refuse to adopt on principle. This is not helped by the fact that the narratives in traditional religious myths are all pre-modern and it is hardly surprising if they have difficulty coming to grips with the issues facing today's world. 

Scruton also scates around the other primary motif of religious myths, the sexual taboo, which causes untold individual misery throughout the world, with little benefit to show for it. In modern competitive merit-based societies, there is no longer any great need to ensure inheritance through legitimate progeny. And modern understanding of the phenomenon of homosexuality is causing a slow-mothion train-wreck as traditional religion tries to enforce the taboo.

Certainly the point about the contribution of religion as sublimated scapegoating to conflict-suppression within a social group is well-argued and fairly convincing. However, the obvious point that when the scapegoat is another social or religious group this can lead to amplification rather than suppression of violence remains the elephant in the room. At this stage, I'm still with Hitchens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have admired Scruton since I read a work on basic philosophy by him quite a few years ago. However, I must say that this piece, while instructive and insightful as one would expect, is far from effective as a defence of religion. Apologists for religion who have to adopt an anthropological standpoint are defeated before they begin. Myth and ritual, in order to be effective, must be viscerally accepted as true by participants. As Scruton says they must &#8220;know not what they do&#8221;. The best an approach such as this can achieve is to persuade those of us attached to objective truth to leave the poor dupes to their illusions, which is a stance I refuse to adopt on principle. This is not helped by the fact that the narratives in traditional religious myths are all pre-modern and it is hardly surprising if they have difficulty coming to grips with the issues facing today&#8217;s world. </p>
<p>Scruton also scates around the other primary motif of religious myths, the sexual taboo, which causes untold individual misery throughout the world, with little benefit to show for it. In modern competitive merit-based societies, there is no longer any great need to ensure inheritance through legitimate progeny. And modern understanding of the phenomenon of homosexuality is causing a slow-mothion train-wreck as traditional religion tries to enforce the taboo.</p>
<p>Certainly the point about the contribution of religion as sublimated scapegoating to conflict-suppression within a social group is well-argued and fairly convincing. However, the obvious point that when the scapegoat is another social or religious group this can lead to amplification rather than suppression of violence remains the elephant in the room. At this stage, I&#8217;m still with Hitchens.</p>
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		<title>By: monkeywicked</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1902</link>
		<dc:creator>monkeywicked</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1902</guid>
		<description>Reading both Scruton's article and the many responses to it, I became increasingly aware of how problematic the word "religion" is here.  Everyone seems to have a specific and specialized understanding of the term, and often that leads to attacks and defenses of completely different targets.  Some people are attacking cosmological orthodoxy while others are defending spiritual individualism--two very different concepts.

I found Scruton's article illuminating--it helped me understand some of the aesthetic qualities I seek out in literature--but I think he makes a mistake if he believes he is talking about ALL religion.  In fact, I see this essay as being a definition of one possible form religion can take, a potentially ideal form.  It is one definition of religion, but it's certainly not the definitive definition.  When he writes, "Religion is not the source of violence but the solution to it" what he really should be saying is, "Religion, as I have described it here, could be a solution to violence and our other dark human impulses."  

Others, such as Hitchens, might argue, "Religion, as I have defined it, is one of the root causes of ignorance and violence."  And he ALSO might be correct.  
 
Once these semantics are cleared up, many of the arguments  simply disappear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading both Scruton&#8217;s article and the many responses to it, I became increasingly aware of how problematic the word &#8220;religion&#8221; is here.  Everyone seems to have a specific and specialized understanding of the term, and often that leads to attacks and defenses of completely different targets.  Some people are attacking cosmological orthodoxy while others are defending spiritual individualism&#8211;two very different concepts.</p>
<p>I found Scruton&#8217;s article illuminating&#8211;it helped me understand some of the aesthetic qualities I seek out in literature&#8211;but I think he makes a mistake if he believes he is talking about ALL religion.  In fact, I see this essay as being a definition of one possible form religion can take, a potentially ideal form.  It is one definition of religion, but it&#8217;s certainly not the definitive definition.  When he writes, &#8220;Religion is not the source of violence but the solution to it&#8221; what he really should be saying is, &#8220;Religion, as I have described it here, could be a solution to violence and our other dark human impulses.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Others, such as Hitchens, might argue, &#8220;Religion, as I have defined it, is one of the root causes of ignorance and violence.&#8221;  And he ALSO might be correct.  </p>
<p>Once these semantics are cleared up, many of the arguments  simply disappear.</p>
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		<title>By: elena balyberdina</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1764</link>
		<dc:creator>elena balyberdina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1764</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that there is an alternative way to deal with one's realized aggression. Mr. Scruton's hypothesis that humans long for some kind of purging themselves from  accumulated violence through sacrificing the "sacred" seems far-fetched and exotic. How about not being aggressive in the first place or if one happens to be - say i am sorry?

The necessity of killing of an innocent man to undo of one's sins against him seems to be an awful perversion of human psychology and merely reflects some kind of a weird problem Scruton might have. What does Nietzsche have to do with any of that? Nietzsche's hypothesis was at last that provacative. He entertained an idea, which is very compatible with the nature of a modern man, namely, who would do anything in order to promote his agenda and if it takes a posing as a sacrificed man, he will do it. Nietzsche was much more skeptical about man's nature and it seems that Scruton misunderstood the latter. It happens in philosophy anyway.
In conclusion, it is very bizarre to read this piece, because on the one hand it might have some "explanatory power" of religion and on the other hand reveal pathology of it and necessity to do something about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that there is an alternative way to deal with one&#8217;s realized aggression. Mr. Scruton&#8217;s hypothesis that humans long for some kind of purging themselves from  accumulated violence through sacrificing the &#8220;sacred&#8221; seems far-fetched and exotic. How about not being aggressive in the first place or if one happens to be - say i am sorry?</p>
<p>The necessity of killing of an innocent man to undo of one&#8217;s sins against him seems to be an awful perversion of human psychology and merely reflects some kind of a weird problem Scruton might have. What does Nietzsche have to do with any of that? Nietzsche&#8217;s hypothesis was at last that provacative. He entertained an idea, which is very compatible with the nature of a modern man, namely, who would do anything in order to promote his agenda and if it takes a posing as a sacrificed man, he will do it. Nietzsche was much more skeptical about man&#8217;s nature and it seems that Scruton misunderstood the latter. It happens in philosophy anyway.<br />
In conclusion, it is very bizarre to read this piece, because on the one hand it might have some &#8220;explanatory power&#8221; of religion and on the other hand reveal pathology of it and necessity to do something about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Kelly</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1759</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1759</guid>
		<description>Roger Scruton notes that for Hegel “Monotheism is a form of self-creation as the spirit learns to recognise itself”. The next step is for the human spirit to recognise its real purpose. This is explained in “Resolving Aristotle’s Antinomy of Creation”, paper No. 96 on the Philica.com website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger Scruton notes that for Hegel “Monotheism is a form of self-creation as the spirit learns to recognise itself”. The next step is for the human spirit to recognise its real purpose. This is explained in “Resolving Aristotle’s Antinomy of Creation”, paper No. 96 on the Philica.com website.</p>
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		<title>By: Today&#8217;s top links (about books) at First Drafts - The Prospect magazine blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1756</link>
		<dc:creator>Today&#8217;s top links (about books) at First Drafts - The Prospect magazine blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1756</guid>
		<description>[...] for blogs too—the most popular and commented-on post on First Drafts by a long way is the one linked to Roger Scruton&#8217;s article on atheist [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for blogs too—the most popular and commented-on post on First Drafts by a long way is the one linked to Roger Scruton&#8217;s article on atheist [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ash.</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1685</link>
		<dc:creator>ash.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1685</guid>
		<description>think the concept of the sacred is about submission.  perhaps it's root being in the (lack of) submission to one's biological father.  nothing wrong with that, mind!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>think the concept of the sacred is about submission.  perhaps it&#8217;s root being in the (lack of) submission to one&#8217;s biological father.  nothing wrong with that, mind!</p>
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		<title>By: annie morgan</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1677</link>
		<dc:creator>annie morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1677</guid>
		<description>It isn't 'religion' per se that causes all the trouble, it is the dogma and doctrines therein.  No matter how you look at it, when followers of a religion insist that theirs is the only one, violence is the result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It isn&#8217;t &#8216;religion&#8217; per se that causes all the trouble, it is the dogma and doctrines therein.  No matter how you look at it, when followers of a religion insist that theirs is the only one, violence is the result.</p>
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		<title>By: anthony steyning</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1676</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony steyning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2007/07/25/the-sacred-and-the-human/#comment-1676</guid>
		<description>The problem with Roger Scruton is that he loves to believe, needing the comfort of it, the warmth of it, first selling us the line that atheism is the root of all evil and now that it's not about God but that we can't live without the sacred, sneeking in another one through the backdoor. It's obvious that HE can't, needing the circus of robes and incense to still his fears. Which is fine, so do the millions. Just don't call yourself a philosopher, when you haven't the courage for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with Roger Scruton is that he loves to believe, needing the comfort of it, the warmth of it, first selling us the line that atheism is the root of all evil and now that it&#8217;s not about God but that we can&#8217;t live without the sacred, sneeking in another one through the backdoor. It&#8217;s obvious that HE can&#8217;t, needing the circus of robes and incense to still his fears. Which is fine, so do the millions. Just don&#8217;t call yourself a philosopher, when you haven&#8217;t the courage for it.</p>
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