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	<title>Comments on: Prospect&#8217;s new issue: how China thinks</title>
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	<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4923</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4923</guid>
		<description>Realistic danger comes from making assumptions of one culture based on the values of another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Realistic danger comes from making assumptions of one culture based on the values of another.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Frith</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4294</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Frith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4294</guid>
		<description>Hi Sima Qian. Good point there. The Chinese have always slaughtered each other then?

I don't think I have Western spectacles though. I'm a bit of a global vagrant and far more critical of other countries than China. Lots of myopia here though. Where are you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sima Qian. Good point there. The Chinese have always slaughtered each other then?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I have Western spectacles though. I&#8217;m a bit of a global vagrant and far more critical of other countries than China. Lots of myopia here though. Where are you?</p>
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		<title>By: revilogo</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4241</link>
		<dc:creator>revilogo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4241</guid>
		<description>St Trinians, having seen the same documentary on Channel 4 and without intending to appear as an apologist for the CCP, I feel that the programme like many other single issue documentaries churn out by the media failed to give the whole picture in not giving the context of many of the policies which is said to be causing a Tibetan "cultural genocide". Had many of these policies been explored further, free from value judgements and our own western cultural sensibilities, one can see that they are not specifically designed to target Tibetans per se, but can be found all over China where relevant because of perceived national imperatives.

For example, the policy of reducing Tibetan nomadic grazing on the grasslands is also mirrored in Inner Mongolia, Xingjiang and other parts of China where the nomadic lifestyle remains prevalent. The intention is to reduce soil erosion, desertification and the resulting dust storms and lost of arable land caused by overgrazing due to the increased demand for meat because of increased affluence. Of course the contrary perception of the policy’s intention being to increased urbanisation and better social control may as equally be valid as that it is a drive towards development and environmental protection.

The issue of forced sterilisation, however abhorrent, is also not limited to Tibet alone. Whilst China’s minorities are exempt from the one child policy that is imposed on city dwelling Han Chinese, unless of course they can pay the fines, there remains a cap on how many children each minority family can have based on individual families’ circumstances. In most cases, where a minority family have more than two children a ban is imposed, but in the Tibetan situation the policy fails to account for the still common practice of brothers in one family sharing a wife/wives and the perceived affluence of the Han Chinese and their supposed ability to pay the fines and private tuition.

On the issue of religious beliefs, our own experiences in the West, being predominantly based on the struggle between Protestantism and Catholicism and is only now struggling with Islam within our own society, often pale in comparison to China’s complex experience of religion. As well as the home grown belief system of Taoism, Confucianism, ancestral worship and a heavenly hierarchy, the Han Chinese preferred ascetic tradition of Zen Buddhism were historically often in conflict with Tibetan Lamaism and the perceived corruption born out of the indulgences of a Tibetan theocracy. It also didn’t help that because of a shared nomadic tradition, Tibetan Lamaism was also the adopted state religion of the Mongol Yuan and Manchurian Qing minority dynasty, which stood in stark contrast to the agrarian origins of the majority Han Chinese. And whilst Islam was never perceived as an ‘invader’ religion, Christianity was associated with Western imperialism and colonialism. 

Further considering the many cult-like revolutions that have toppled dynasties, it is not surprising that today’s CCP, like past dynastic governments, are wary of religion, while the majority of Han Chinese’ attitude towards Buddhism and religion down the ages is perhaps best described as ambivalent pragmatism. But the irony is that many of us in the West, disillusioned with the Churches are increasingly turning to Buddhism as a solace against modernity.

Consequently, the restriction on the number of Buddhist monks and nuns in Tibet also applies to other Buddhist temples in other parts of China. It is as much about pragmatic prevention of challenges to authority as it is about how many ideologically perceived ‘non-productive’ members a society can support in its unrelenting quest for development and modernity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>St Trinians, having seen the same documentary on Channel 4 and without intending to appear as an apologist for the CCP, I feel that the programme like many other single issue documentaries churn out by the media failed to give the whole picture in not giving the context of many of the policies which is said to be causing a Tibetan &#8220;cultural genocide&#8221;. Had many of these policies been explored further, free from value judgements and our own western cultural sensibilities, one can see that they are not specifically designed to target Tibetans per se, but can be found all over China where relevant because of perceived national imperatives.</p>
<p>For example, the policy of reducing Tibetan nomadic grazing on the grasslands is also mirrored in Inner Mongolia, Xingjiang and other parts of China where the nomadic lifestyle remains prevalent. The intention is to reduce soil erosion, desertification and the resulting dust storms and lost of arable land caused by overgrazing due to the increased demand for meat because of increased affluence. Of course the contrary perception of the policy’s intention being to increased urbanisation and better social control may as equally be valid as that it is a drive towards development and environmental protection.</p>
<p>The issue of forced sterilisation, however abhorrent, is also not limited to Tibet alone. Whilst China’s minorities are exempt from the one child policy that is imposed on city dwelling Han Chinese, unless of course they can pay the fines, there remains a cap on how many children each minority family can have based on individual families’ circumstances. In most cases, where a minority family have more than two children a ban is imposed, but in the Tibetan situation the policy fails to account for the still common practice of brothers in one family sharing a wife/wives and the perceived affluence of the Han Chinese and their supposed ability to pay the fines and private tuition.</p>
<p>On the issue of religious beliefs, our own experiences in the West, being predominantly based on the struggle between Protestantism and Catholicism and is only now struggling with Islam within our own society, often pale in comparison to China’s complex experience of religion. As well as the home grown belief system of Taoism, Confucianism, ancestral worship and a heavenly hierarchy, the Han Chinese preferred ascetic tradition of Zen Buddhism were historically often in conflict with Tibetan Lamaism and the perceived corruption born out of the indulgences of a Tibetan theocracy. It also didn’t help that because of a shared nomadic tradition, Tibetan Lamaism was also the adopted state religion of the Mongol Yuan and Manchurian Qing minority dynasty, which stood in stark contrast to the agrarian origins of the majority Han Chinese. And whilst Islam was never perceived as an ‘invader’ religion, Christianity was associated with Western imperialism and colonialism. </p>
<p>Further considering the many cult-like revolutions that have toppled dynasties, it is not surprising that today’s CCP, like past dynastic governments, are wary of religion, while the majority of Han Chinese’ attitude towards Buddhism and religion down the ages is perhaps best described as ambivalent pragmatism. But the irony is that many of us in the West, disillusioned with the Churches are increasingly turning to Buddhism as a solace against modernity.</p>
<p>Consequently, the restriction on the number of Buddhist monks and nuns in Tibet also applies to other Buddhist temples in other parts of China. It is as much about pragmatic prevention of challenges to authority as it is about how many ideologically perceived ‘non-productive’ members a society can support in its unrelenting quest for development and modernity.</p>
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		<title>By: David Heigham</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4149</link>
		<dc:creator>David Heigham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4149</guid>
		<description>My working definition of a useful expert is someone who is appalled at his or her own ignorance of the subject, but even more appalled by other people's ignorance. Much of the above makes me feel almost like an expert on Chinese intellectual life; and I do not even read Chinese! Happily, Sima Qian and David Cowhig remind me of how little I understand (and BWLK reminds us of a centuries old Chinese tradition of how to excoriate "useless" intellectual debates). 
The form of Chinese intellectual controversy is conditioned by the fact that (I think, Sima Qian will correct me) open disagreement with official doctrine has sometimes been a misdemeanour and sometimes a crime - and always likely to bring down official disapproval - in China ever since the time of Qin Shihuang to thousand years ago. Debate has often been lively since then, so much so tha that Chinese are accustomed to assuming that open disagreement with the official line is a sign of clumsiness and inability to argue effectively. Any worthwhile contributor to the debate can make his point with impact without open quarrels with authority. The result is style of debate that is highly allusive (when Sima Qian mentions Qin Shihuang in conjunction one is invited to remember aspects of Mao which still are not admitted by the official line, not juat the deaths which are more or less acknowledged) and which takes for granted the use of statements which can be read in more than one sense (see David Cowhig's note on "democracy"). Our style of argument descending from Socrates is very different.
It has been evident for a generation that sometime in this century China is likely to become the most important power in the world. The rest of the planet needs interpreters of Chinese intellectual life who read Chinese fluently and have depth of background in Chinese culture. I very much hope that Prospect will lead in giving them some of the space that we need them to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My working definition of a useful expert is someone who is appalled at his or her own ignorance of the subject, but even more appalled by other people&#8217;s ignorance. Much of the above makes me feel almost like an expert on Chinese intellectual life; and I do not even read Chinese! Happily, Sima Qian and David Cowhig remind me of how little I understand (and BWLK reminds us of a centuries old Chinese tradition of how to excoriate &#8220;useless&#8221; intellectual debates).<br />
The form of Chinese intellectual controversy is conditioned by the fact that (I think, Sima Qian will correct me) open disagreement with official doctrine has sometimes been a misdemeanour and sometimes a crime - and always likely to bring down official disapproval - in China ever since the time of Qin Shihuang to thousand years ago. Debate has often been lively since then, so much so tha that Chinese are accustomed to assuming that open disagreement with the official line is a sign of clumsiness and inability to argue effectively. Any worthwhile contributor to the debate can make his point with impact without open quarrels with authority. The result is style of debate that is highly allusive (when Sima Qian mentions Qin Shihuang in conjunction one is invited to remember aspects of Mao which still are not admitted by the official line, not juat the deaths which are more or less acknowledged) and which takes for granted the use of statements which can be read in more than one sense (see David Cowhig&#8217;s note on &#8220;democracy&#8221;). Our style of argument descending from Socrates is very different.<br />
It has been evident for a generation that sometime in this century China is likely to become the most important power in the world. The rest of the planet needs interpreters of Chinese intellectual life who read Chinese fluently and have depth of background in Chinese culture. I very much hope that Prospect will lead in giving them some of the space that we need them to have.</p>
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		<title>By: St Trinians</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4142</link>
		<dc:creator>St Trinians</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4142</guid>
		<description>Dispatches : Undercover In Tibet
8pm , Channel 4 
Monday 31-03-2008

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+in+tibet/1824047

Which one respected British newspaper TV critic has described as : 

" This timely report on the grim realities of life in Tibet under Chinese rule was filmed undercover by Tibetan exile Tash Despa and 
director Jezza Neumann ( China's Stolen Children ). It leaves no doubt that cultural genocide is being enacted by a brutally oppressive regime. A very different picture from that painted in BBC4's A Year in Tibet "</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dispatches : Undercover In Tibet<br />
8pm , Channel 4<br />
Monday 31-03-2008</p>
<p><a href="http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+in+tibet/1824047" rel="nofollow">http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+in+tibet/1824047</a></p>
<p>Which one respected British newspaper TV critic has described as : </p>
<p>&#8221; This timely report on the grim realities of life in Tibet under Chinese rule was filmed undercover by Tibetan exile Tash Despa and<br />
director Jezza Neumann ( China&#8217;s Stolen Children ). It leaves no doubt that cultural genocide is being enacted by a brutally oppressive regime. A very different picture from that painted in BBC4&#8217;s A Year in Tibet &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Sima Qian</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4138</link>
		<dc:creator>Sima Qian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4138</guid>
		<description>Charles Frith, take off your Westerner's spectacles. If you doubt the ability of China's past dynastic emperors to kill one's own you need only start with Qin Shihuang, a tyrant and anti-intellectual of the first order. Or Mao, of whom the less said about the better. The current bunch are truly tame by comparison. It was not 50 years ago that America was a deeply racist, segregated nation (which in many ways it still is), but it behooves the serious commentator to note the strides that the U.S. has taken in alleviating its racial injustices and other instances of historical shame such as slavery. Do we say that Americans have nought but its halcyon days to look to because of its immediate history? Of course not. That would be unfair (as are your views on China). Get some perspective, and take the long view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles Frith, take off your Westerner&#8217;s spectacles. If you doubt the ability of China&#8217;s past dynastic emperors to kill one&#8217;s own you need only start with Qin Shihuang, a tyrant and anti-intellectual of the first order. Or Mao, of whom the less said about the better. The current bunch are truly tame by comparison. It was not 50 years ago that America was a deeply racist, segregated nation (which in many ways it still is), but it behooves the serious commentator to note the strides that the U.S. has taken in alleviating its racial injustices and other instances of historical shame such as slavery. Do we say that Americans have nought but its halcyon days to look to because of its immediate history? Of course not. That would be unfair (as are your views on China). Get some perspective, and take the long view.</p>
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		<title>By: Sima Qian, Historian Emeritus</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4136</link>
		<dc:creator>Sima Qian, Historian Emeritus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4136</guid>
		<description>5 String: 

"What a load of waffle" accurately describes your own clueless remarks. Western intellectual tradition permeates the periphery of all thinking, not least of all economic thought: the tension between the kinder, gentler welfarism of Hu Jintao's inchoate 'Scientific Development Concept' vs the unbridled 'growth at all cost' capitalism of the Deng era is the same debate that plays itself out in the West on different terms but in very similar contexts. The very concepts of Marxism, "leftist", and "rightist" are Western in origin. And China, the last time I checked, is nominally socialist; another Western concept.

You seem to resent China's capitalistic success. And for that I pity you. Ideological dragons like you would have been first in the line of reactionaries opposing Deng's reforms in 1978. Far from being "disastrous" those reforms have dragged millions of Chinese out of poverty. Still, the sanctimonious Westerner in you would prefer that a third world country starves while you indulge your ideological scruples. No thanks.

Another point about Western intellectual tradition: you suggest that it is necessary, but you seem to have slept through history. The Japanese are not consciously Western in outlook, but have done well enough. Likewise the South Koreans. And Taiwan. And Singapore, which trumpets 'Asian values'. Are all these countries 'disastrous' in your view?

Your remarks are as superficial, shallow, and gormless as they come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5 String: </p>
<p>&#8220;What a load of waffle&#8221; accurately describes your own clueless remarks. Western intellectual tradition permeates the periphery of all thinking, not least of all economic thought: the tension between the kinder, gentler welfarism of Hu Jintao&#8217;s inchoate &#8216;Scientific Development Concept&#8217; vs the unbridled &#8216;growth at all cost&#8217; capitalism of the Deng era is the same debate that plays itself out in the West on different terms but in very similar contexts. The very concepts of Marxism, &#8220;leftist&#8221;, and &#8220;rightist&#8221; are Western in origin. And China, the last time I checked, is nominally socialist; another Western concept.</p>
<p>You seem to resent China&#8217;s capitalistic success. And for that I pity you. Ideological dragons like you would have been first in the line of reactionaries opposing Deng&#8217;s reforms in 1978. Far from being &#8220;disastrous&#8221; those reforms have dragged millions of Chinese out of poverty. Still, the sanctimonious Westerner in you would prefer that a third world country starves while you indulge your ideological scruples. No thanks.</p>
<p>Another point about Western intellectual tradition: you suggest that it is necessary, but you seem to have slept through history. The Japanese are not consciously Western in outlook, but have done well enough. Likewise the South Koreans. And Taiwan. And Singapore, which trumpets &#8216;Asian values&#8217;. Are all these countries &#8216;disastrous&#8217; in your view?</p>
<p>Your remarks are as superficial, shallow, and gormless as they come.</p>
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		<title>By: KingJaja</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4123</link>
		<dc:creator>KingJaja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4123</guid>
		<description>Jen,

You forget that India fought Pakistan in 1999 (the Kargil war). China has never taken military action against Taiwan and with the election of the KMT it seems even less likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen,</p>
<p>You forget that India fought Pakistan in 1999 (the Kargil war). China has never taken military action against Taiwan and with the election of the KMT it seems even less likely.</p>
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		<title>By: 5 string</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4118</link>
		<dc:creator>5 string</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4118</guid>
		<description>What a load of waffle. 
China has embarked on an orgy of material and pecuniary acquisition without it seems any idea of the pitfalls. Tapping into the western production process without any reference to the western intellectual tradition is a recipe for disaster that has global ramifications and if China is to show she is more than just another insatiable consumer then they have a lot more thinking to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a load of waffle.<br />
China has embarked on an orgy of material and pecuniary acquisition without it seems any idea of the pitfalls. Tapping into the western production process without any reference to the western intellectual tradition is a recipe for disaster that has global ramifications and if China is to show she is more than just another insatiable consumer then they have a lot more thinking to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Frith</title>
		<link>http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4098</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Frith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.prospectblogs.com/2008/02/27/prospects-new-issue-how-china-thinks/#comment-4098</guid>
		<description>Living in Beijing I can say unequivocally that I'm not surprised that the ancient historical scholars are more respected than current international relations experts. China can do little other than draw on the halcyon glow of its past for inspiration as its immediate history is smeared with the ability of its own to kill its own. That is a lesson few talk about.

Interesting country though. Feels like living in an experiment. I'd much prefer Beijing to handle global warming than D.C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Living in Beijing I can say unequivocally that I&#8217;m not surprised that the ancient historical scholars are more respected than current international relations experts. China can do little other than draw on the halcyon glow of its past for inspiration as its immediate history is smeared with the ability of its own to kill its own. That is a lesson few talk about.</p>
<p>Interesting country though. Feels like living in an experiment. I&#8217;d much prefer Beijing to handle global warming than D.C.</p>
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